<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: Are puzzles an integral part of IF?	</title>
	<atom:link href="/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/</link>
	<description>Interactive Fiction by Juhana Leinonen</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:01:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: Andrew Plotkin		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3761</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew Plotkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3761</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I see I&#039;m behind on this one, but Matt&#039;s latest comment sums up where I&#039;m coming from. 

I *do* define &quot;puzzle&quot; very broadly, and it&#039;s not so I can split hairs. It&#039;s because if the game offers something for the player to meaningfully interact with, then the player (a) cares about what the outcome is, and (b) may fail to get one outcome vs another. (That&#039;s pretty much how I define &quot;meaningful&quot;.) 

That applies to Galatea. If you want to call Galatea &quot;puzzleless&quot;, I&#039;m okay with that; but the discussion is then about how Galatea presents outcomes which don&#039;t feel like failures, even when the player gets sidetracked or doesn&#039;t know how to approach a given subject. And then those techniques are equally applicable to &quot;traditional puzzle&quot; scenarios.

Hm. So if Galatea, or a conversational NPC of that complexity, were a gate guard -- she would de facto be a puzzle. (Presume the player is outside the gate and Chapter 2 is inside.) You could imagine some late-conversation states in which the guard allows the player in; and others in which the guard mentions a back door, or offers to arrange a meeting with the person you&#039;re trying to meet, or various other ways to move the plot forward. The player is going to perceive that as a puzzle even if *every* outcome leads to Chapter 2, because the player&#039;s impression comes from first impact.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see I'm behind on this one, but Matt's latest comment sums up where I'm coming from. </p>
<p>I *do* define "puzzle" very broadly, and it's not so I can split hairs. It's because if the game offers something for the player to meaningfully interact with, then the player (a) cares about what the outcome is, and (b) may fail to get one outcome vs another. (That's pretty much how I define "meaningful".) </p>
<p>That applies to Galatea. If you want to call Galatea "puzzleless", I'm okay with that; but the discussion is then about how Galatea presents outcomes which don't feel like failures, even when the player gets sidetracked or doesn't know how to approach a given subject. And then those techniques are equally applicable to "traditional puzzle" scenarios.</p>
<p>Hm. So if Galatea, or a conversational NPC of that complexity, were a gate guard -- she would de facto be a puzzle. (Presume the player is outside the gate and Chapter 2 is inside.) You could imagine some late-conversation states in which the guard allows the player in; and others in which the guard mentions a back door, or offers to arrange a meeting with the person you're trying to meet, or various other ways to move the plot forward. The player is going to perceive that as a puzzle even if *every* outcome leads to Chapter 2, because the player's impression comes from first impact.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Matt Wigdahl		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3756</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Wigdahl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3756</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Juhana:  Fair enough.  But I think it&#039;s a valid question to ask what forms of interaction within a world model would fall outside the definition of &quot;puzzle&quot;.  When we&#039;ve established that, we can discuss the types of player experiences you could build using those interactions.

The main problem I see is that the puzzle serves several roles in an IF game at present:

It&#039;s a gating mechanism -- allowing certain content to be metered or privileged.

It&#039;s an achievement -- players (often) want to overcome challenges for a number of different reasons, including pride, score, etc.

It motivates exploration of the world model -- the player&#039;s attention is focused on aspects of the world model that might prove useful in overcoming the puzzle at hand.

It can facilitate characterization and plot -- the PC&#039;s personality can be established through responses to action, and world-model puzzles generally require varied actions to solve.

Any non-puzzle mechanism is going to have to somehow fill those roles, in which case you have the &quot;if it quacks like a duck&quot; issue.  Either that or you&#039;ll have to dispense with or modify one or more of those aspects, which then takes away a major tool used to make an interactive experience compelling.

Not that it can&#039;t be done, but I think we&#039;ll need to have our definitions straight first.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Juhana:  Fair enough.  But I think it's a valid question to ask what forms of interaction within a world model would fall outside the definition of "puzzle".  When we've established that, we can discuss the types of player experiences you could build using those interactions.</p>
<p>The main problem I see is that the puzzle serves several roles in an IF game at present:</p>
<p>It's a gating mechanism -- allowing certain content to be metered or privileged.</p>
<p>It's an achievement -- players (often) want to overcome challenges for a number of different reasons, including pride, score, etc.</p>
<p>It motivates exploration of the world model -- the player's attention is focused on aspects of the world model that might prove useful in overcoming the puzzle at hand.</p>
<p>It can facilitate characterization and plot -- the PC's personality can be established through responses to action, and world-model puzzles generally require varied actions to solve.</p>
<p>Any non-puzzle mechanism is going to have to somehow fill those roles, in which case you have the "if it quacks like a duck" issue.  Either that or you'll have to dispense with or modify one or more of those aspects, which then takes away a major tool used to make an interactive experience compelling.</p>
<p>Not that it can't be done, but I think we'll need to have our definitions straight first.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Juhana		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3752</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Juhana]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3752</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3748&quot;&gt;Jeremy&lt;/a&gt;.

Jeremy: Does that mean your answer to the title&#039;s question is &quot;yes&quot;?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3748">Jeremy</a>.</p>
<p>Jeremy: Does that mean your answer to the title's question is "yes"?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Jeremy		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3748</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3748</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So, you are unhappy that puzzles - the back bone and history of virtually all IF - are spoiling your experience? Perhaps you should try a good book instead]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you are unhappy that puzzles - the back bone and history of virtually all IF - are spoiling your experience? Perhaps you should try a good book instead</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Juhana		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3745</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Juhana]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3745</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, let&#039;s not start splitting hairs. Sure, you &lt;em&gt;could&lt;/em&gt; define puzzles as &quot;all interaction,&quot; but that doesn&#039;t mean you &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; or that it would do anyone any good. (Even static fiction is a puzzle! You have to figure out how to turn the page!) 

Matt: Just a clarification: I&#039;m not arguing that puzzles are inferior to other game mechanics, just that some variation would be good.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, let's not start splitting hairs. Sure, you <em>could</em> define puzzles as "all interaction," but that doesn't mean you <em>should</em> or that it would do anyone any good. (Even static fiction is a puzzle! You have to figure out how to turn the page!) </p>
<p>Matt: Just a clarification: I'm not arguing that puzzles are inferior to other game mechanics, just that some variation would be good.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Tale		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3738</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3738</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, I think we should define &quot;puzzle&quot; here. I think what Juhana means is something that is &quot;an obstacle.&quot; The conversation in Galatea can always be continued and has no &quot;winning&quot; or &quot;losing&quot; end. (Well, IIRC you can get her to break your arm, which is an undesired outcome to any conversation.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think we should define "puzzle" here. I think what Juhana means is something that is "an obstacle." The conversation in Galatea can always be continued and has no "winning" or "losing" end. (Well, IIRC you can get her to break your arm, which is an undesired outcome to any conversation.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: J Lawless		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3736</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J Lawless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3736</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The problem I see is that it nearly any sort of interactive element where there are better and worse outcomes based on intelligent choices(as opposed to a random number, say) in the interaction could be called a puzzle in IF.

Puzzles being so hugely dominant is as much a &#039;problem&#039; of choice of words.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem I see is that it nearly any sort of interactive element where there are better and worse outcomes based on intelligent choices(as opposed to a random number, say) in the interaction could be called a puzzle in IF.</p>
<p>Puzzles being so hugely dominant is as much a 'problem' of choice of words.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Tale		</title>
		<link>/blog/2010/08/are-puzzles-an-integral-part-of-if/comment-page-1/#comment-3731</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=393#comment-3731</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hmm...when you put it that way, I&#039;m wondering about the world model itself. IF can be so many different things... (I&#039;m thinking of Space under the Window or some Art Show entries I saw.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm...when you put it that way, I'm wondering about the world model itself. IF can be so many different things... (I'm thinking of Space under the Window or some Art Show entries I saw.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
